Defender 130 Fuel pump whining

[nicksin]

Hi guys.

Didn't think I'd be posting something new this quick.

My fuel pump ( I believe ) started giving off a high pitched whining noise today.
I think I established this as I found the noise to emanating from the diesel tank.

The only recent thing that can be related is that I filled up the long range tank for the 1st time since getting the vehicle.
If I turn on the ignition without starting up the vehicle, the noise will stop after about 20 seconds.

Whilst driving its constantly there.

Is this a replacement ?
How difficult is it to replace yourself and what should a fuel pump cost if it is that ?

Thanks again.
Nic

[Pumba]

Hi there Nicksin

If it whines at start-up and then goes quiet it sounds like there is air entering the fuel line, or some sort of restriction, e.g. a partially blocked fuel filter. So check this first. Tip - The TD5 filter has a water sensor at the bottom, this piece of plastic crap usually break off. You could buy the TDI fuel filter - it is the same but without the hole in the bottom for the water sensor.

A buggered pump will keep on whining all the time, and not go quiet after a few seconds. If this is the case, be careful who does the work – don’t go to the local tappet working on Corsas etc.

The Stealers will ask plenty (last time that I enquired it was about R4500, but that was a couple of years ago) and this includes the whole pump assembly. The guys at Dover or Cross Country will give you a better price (at least half).

You could replace only the pump though - I remember reading somewhere on the Forum about the part number for the Siemens pump.

The job is a bit of a bitch. You must try to tackle it when the tanks are close to empty (its not funny trying to drain 130 litres of diesel in jerry cans!)
try to get the beasty clean before starting to take things apart - you don't want sand falling into the tank, or your eyes when working underneath.
If you have a side-mounted Long-range tank between the filler and the main tank it is a bit of a fight to remove the connecting pipe. Tip-smear some grease on the inside of the pipe when assembling - it makes the job easier.
The tank is fixed with 2 bolts at the back and 2 bolts at the front, make sure you have something to support the weight of the tank, like a milk-crate or something sturdy. It is not that heavy but the size makes it uncomfortable to wrestle with, especially with trying to disconnect the wires and 4 fuel lines. Slack off the rear bolts and remove the front ones while supporting the tank on the crate so that you can loosen the wires and fuel lines.

Be careful of the BMW-type clip-in plastic connectors on the top of the pump assembly - they break off easily close to the fittings. There are 4 of them, 2 pipes running out and 2 returning - make sure you don't connect them wrong way round. They are colour coded - be sure to check before removing. Use thin-nosed pliers to remove the retaining clips.
Tip – If you do break a line close to the fitting make a proper repair by threading the inside of both ends of the line with a 6 mm tap. Then take a piece of metal pipe about 30mm long and tap it 6mm on the outside. Put some Pratley on the thread of the metal pipe and then connect the broken bits – this will hold up well. If you cannot find a pipe then drill a small hole through a piece of 6mm threaded rod or bolt (nice challenge).

The lid of the pump housing screws on like a canned-fruit bottle– the special LR tool is actually what is needed, but you could remove it by tapping it around the outside lightly with a hammer and a piece of wood or a piece of flat bar.

Be careful not to damage the float arm when removing the assembly. When putting it back make sure that the pipes are facing forward otherwise the float will catch on the side of the tank and give you an incorrect fuel level reading.

Make sure you put back the round rubber seal underneath the lid. Screw the lid on tightly, connect the lines etc.

I’ve learned the hard way – when I bought the TD5 the pump was whining. I negotiated with the 2nd hand salesman to replace the pump – I wanted him to give me the pump to fit it myself by the idiot wanted his bunch of baboons to fit it. Needless to say the first time I filled the tank the fuel was leaking out the top as said baboons neglected to fit the rubber seal. I had to drain 120 litres of fuel, and only had 2 jerry cans – I bought some 40 litre packing crates as it was cheaper than buying 2 extra jerry cans that I will never use.

When removing the tank I saw that the baboons also broke the fuel line and patched it with Pratley. I put everything back again, only to have the fuel line break off completely one Sunday while visiting friends in Brits. That’s when I fixed it with threaded pipe and since then no troubles until I sold the TD5 2 years later.

Good luck

[pretdave]

There is a thread on this forum (possibly with Discovery..)which lists a company in Pinetown selling new pumps for R1500. Anyone used them ?
If you cant find the thread let me know..
Before you strip everything try the 2 stroke cure- 500ml 2 stroke into a full tank. It will probably make a noticeable difference to the noise.

Dave

[nicksin]

Thanks Pumba,

At the moment the pump whines constantly.
I tried the bleeding exercise, with no change in noise at all.

Changing the pump does sound like quite a process with lots of potential pitfalls.
I'm not too experienced in the repairs department and it looks like I might be better off taking it in.
I have the Landy online guys in mind as I'm quite close to them.

I would like to understand the reasoning behind the two stroke.
What does it do, and how does it affect the engine ?
Is there possible damage it could cause ?

It would be great if it solves the problem.

Thanks for the feedback.
Will keep you "posted"

[johan grbler]

the 2stroke lubes all moving parts in the fuel system specially if you're driving on 50ppm diesel. I run 200ml on every second tank in my td5 130 for the last 6 months, and there's a huge reduction in noise levels and whines... There's a post in just above avout the R1500 pump

[pretdave]

Many , many diesel owners are using 2 stroke. Demonstrable , significant improvements. Not one claim of damage caused - in any case it is inconceivable : 2 stroke oil is not a weird and wonderful additive - a diesel motor would probably run fine on pure 2 stroke - just expensively !
At the recommended usage rate of less than 1% oil/diesel at the very worst you will have spent an extra R20 for every R1000 on fuel. Try it - you could be pleasantly surprised. You might well find a measurable improvement in consumption that in itself will pay for the extra 2 stroke - and this is not Snake Oil Marketing - there are good technical reasons for the improvement.
Dave

[nicksin]

Before you strip everything try the 2 stroke cure- 500ml 2 stroke into a full tank. It will probably make a noticeable difference to the noise.

Dave

Hi Dave,
Ive added the two stroke and probably done around 40 kilo's without much of a difference.
How soon should I be noticing a difference do you think ?

I also checked with the dealer and they dont seem to be too sure about it having had its 140 service.
Is there an easy way I can check ?
I'm worried the filters etc haven't been changed and I'm sitting on 148 at the moment.

[pretdave]

Before you strip everything try the 2 stroke cure- 500ml 2 stroke into a full tank. It will probably make a noticeable difference to the noise.

Dave

Hi Dave,
Ive added the two stroke and probably done around 40 kilo's without much of a difference.
How soon should I be noticing a difference do you think ?

I also checked with the dealer and they dont seem to be too sure about it having had its 140 service.
Is there an easy way I can check ?
I'm worried the filters etc haven't been changed and I'm sitting on 148 at the moment.

I would guess that the 2 stroke should have made a difference by now- so we should conclude that it will not fix your problem.
If you have not yet fitted a new fuel filter - you should do it immediately. This could fix the noise.
Further than that , i guess , it is drop the tank ,check that there is no restriction in the pump suction . If no restriction , replace with new pump.
Two aspects to bear in mind:
Firstly many Defender owners have modified the rear floor by adding a removable plate above the fuel tank. this makes the pump replacement a 30 minute job instead of a 3 hr job. Useful if you are in the middle of Moz...
Secondly , you mention that when turning the ignition on the noise stops after 20 seconds. The noise stops because the pump stops - not because air has been purged . There is an automatic protective circuit that stops the pump after a certain pressure is reached.
Dave

[Pumba]

Hi there, Landyonline is the place to go!

A common misperception is that diesel is a kind of oil, maybe because of the media referring to diesels as "oil-burners" or the fact that it is made from crude oil - so what about tar, petrol, butane, propane etc that is also derived from crude oil, are they also oils?

We used to have quite a lot of sulphur in the diesel 3000 ppm (parts per million) in the good old bad days and then this was changed to 500ppm max as per EN590:1993 (the so-called Euro 2 standard). EN590:1999 is Euro 3 std = 350 ppm, and the EN590:2004 is Euro 4 std = 50 ppm. For interest sake the max allowed sulphur content for diesel in Japan is 10 ppm, and the lowest SA diesel available is from Sasol = 50 ppm.

The sulphur was added as a cetane booster (with diesel we talk about centane whereas with petrol we talk of octane, e.g. 93 - the higher the number the more bang) but also served as a lubricant in the fuel for things like injector pumps and injector tips. The high sulphur content also caused acids to develop in the engine oil that was slowly eating away at the internals of a diesel engine - hence the need to change oil every 5000km in those days. The sulphur also caused higher NOX emissions and lead to acid rain that was slowly eating away at old buildings, and your lungs. So unfortunately we cannot have GOOD and GOOD news everytime so when lowering the sulphur content the lubrication part was also reduced, but not replaced with anything. At this point guys started to turn to... twostroke!

Twostroke will help to lube the critical points and surfaces, but cannot fix an already damaged surface. The pump in the TD5's tank is turning a little disc with slots, inside the slots are little rollers, and the disk is within a eccentric chamber. As the disk rotates the rollers compress the fuel into the narrowing chamber leading to fuel pressure on the line. The bussing noise is caused when the crome surface of the rollers are damaged, or the disk's slots wear out. This will eventually lead to a drop in fuel pressure, running lean and the engine melting pistons, injectortips, valves etc.

I agree with Dave that it is a good practice to add a bit of 2 stroke every now and then - especially when running the new pump.

[nicksin]

Thanks Pumba.

This is all coming together for me now.
I'm going to get the filter replaced asap, but it sounds like Im in for a new pump in any event.
I've read some horror stories about pumps, injectors, filter's and pretty much everything else in the fuel system being replaced with the pump continuing its complaining after the bank has been broken.
Im hoping Im not in for one of these ...